"One Saturday, I played for Meadowbank away to Cowdenbeath..."
A pause for dramatic effect.
"...and the next Saturday, I was playing for Newcastle against Arsenal. That wouldn't happen now."
Darren Jackson is mulling over a question about particular highlights of his footballing career, and going from playing in front of 271 hardy fans at Central Park to 22,368 at St James' Park inside seven days is up there for the 57-year-old, who is casting his mind back to the late Eighties over a cup of tea at a Stockbridge café.
“Meadowbank was incredible," he says. "Terry [Christie] and the boys looked after me. Then Newcastle was sensational - I went down there as a 20-year-old."
From working full-time for George Stewart's printers and playing for Meadowbank at the weekends to sharing a dressing room and a pitch with Peter Beardsley and Paul Gascoigne and playing at the top of English football. The temptation is there to ask more about his time with Meadowbank and the Magpies, but we're here to talk about other subjects - including his five years at Hibs, which came after a stint at Dundee United following his Geordie sojourn but might have started sooner, had the stars aligned differently.
"Alex Miller had tried to sign me for Hibs from Newcastle before I went to Dundee United. I broke my ankle early in my debut for United and was out six months, so I was there for three-and-a-half years but only played for three of them. It was a brilliant three years, but my contract was running out - United wanted to sign me again, Jim McLean was putting me under a bit of pressure as well but I knew Hibs were interested," he recalls.
Edinburgh-born and bred, Jackson had spent many years away from his hometown, returning after six years to join a Hibs team who had tasted Skol Cup success during the 1991/92 campaign having successfully fended off an audacious takeover bid by Hearts chairman Wallace Mercer.
“Was it a case of coming back home to Edinburgh? I don't think so really; it was just a football decision," Jackson continues. "I’d spoken to Alex; a wonderful manager - so was Jim McLean, I was really blessed with the managers I played under - and I made the decision that I thought was right. I came back to Edinburgh and that was that."
Speaking of Hearts, how did Jackson's decision to join their bitter rivals go down with father Addy, a dyed-in-the-wool Jambo?
“I wouldn’t say it broke my dad’s heart, even though he was a mad, mad Hearts fan, because he lived in Easter Road! He travelled everywhere I played - Meadowbank, Newcastle, Dundee. He got the bus. Never drove. Always the bus or the train, so he didn’t get to every game I played for Newcastle! But for me to be playing at Easter Road was great for him, it was very much a home game, and a lot of his pals were Hibs fans because of the area he was from. He just went to the games to watch me and hoped my team did well. He never said anything [about Hearts] and his background didn’t come into it."
Jackson finished the 1992/93 campaign with 13 league goals for Hibs - his first in green and white coming in a 2-1 defeat of former side Dundee United - plus one in the Scottish Cup in a 5-2 round-three defeat of St Mirren, and another in the UEFA Cup against Anderlecht in Belgium; his strike at the Constant Vanden Stock Stadium not enough to prevent Hibs from exiting the tournament on the away-goals rule.
But despite 15 goals in his debut season, he highlights the 1994/95 campaign when Hibs finished third, a point behind second-placed Motherwell, and reached the Scottish Cup semi-final stage and the last eight of the League Cup when asked if he feels that crop of players underachieved.
"100%. The year we finished third, and Motherwell finished second, I don’t think we won many away games that season. That tells you that we did underachieve," he says, the memory still a little raw despite the passage of time.
"And we had good players. Alex [Miller] probably didn’t get the respect or the acclaim that he deserved, maybe because he came from Rangers, and everyone thought he was a defensive coach.
“But if you have Michael O’Neill on one touchline and Kevin McAllister on the other; Pat McGinlay in attacking midfield, and [Keith] Wright and Jackson up front, I’m not sure how that makes him a defensive coach. And apart from Pat, none of us could defend! We worked hard and we defended as a unit, and Alex worked a lot on defensive plays because when we went forward we were good but defensively we had to be better. I think... no, I know he never got the credit he deserved."
Miller was splitting his time between management duties at Easter Road and serving as Craig Brown's right-hand man at the head of the Scotland national team. But for all the quality players on Hibs' books at the time, hopes of regular international football were all but dashed by the individuals they were up against.
“In that team, I was lucky enough to get picked for Scotland. Keith only got one cap and probably should have had more," Jackson says. "But for me, Gordon Hunter, Kevin McAllister, and Pat McGinlay were really unlucky not to get any Scotland caps. And the reason was, probably, that Craig played a back five and Kevin couldn’t have played wingback in international football. Pat was up against Paul McStay, Gary McAllister, Stuart McCall, John Collins and then Gordon Hunter had Colin Hendry, Matt Elliott, Colin Calderwood, and Tom Boyd. It wasn’t that they weren’t good enough, because they were good enough."
There's a heavy sigh from the other side of the table.
“We did underachieve because we were a good team. We got to one cup final [the 1993 League Cup final against Rangers] and another semi-final [the 1994/95 Scottish Cup when Celtic beat Hibs in a replay] but I think there’s no doubt we underachieved with the players we had: Tam McIntyre, Dave Beaumont, Tweedy [Steven Tweed], Graham Mitchell, Joe [Tortolano], Willie Miller. Good defenders. Jim Leighton in goal - the best. Budgie [John Burridge] was coming to an end but Hibs had Andy Goram, followed by Leighton - two of the best goalkeepers Scotland ever produced.
“When you look at the manager we had and how professional and committed he was, and I should also mention the chairman, Dougie Cromb, who was a wonderful man; an absolute gem, we probably underachieved for them as well as the fans."
Throughout our chat, Jackson makes pointed references to having 'four great years' at Hibs, even though he was there for five.
“Four out of the five years at Hibs were amazing. In my second year, I collected more bookings than I scored goals. I was shocking; very, very poor. I scored eight goals and got booked 12 times."
Hibs finished fifth, seven points off third and European qualification. They were beaten League Cup finalists, going down 2-1 to Rangers at Celtic Park with Ally McCoist scoring the winner with an overhead kick on his first game back after a broken leg, but were knocked out of the Scottish Cup by Hearts at Easter Road. Jackson went eight games without scoring in the league, and was sent off during the first Edinburgh derby of the season; a 1-0 loss at Tynecastle.
He did score the only goal of the game as Hibs knocked Dundee United out of the League Cup at the semi-final stage, the match also held at Tynecastle. Jackson netted after ten minutes, and the game is up there with his most prized memories from his time in green and white - even if the season as a whole still rankles 30 years later. The following year provided something of a wake-up call, however.
“The semi-final at Tynecastle against Dundee United, my old club, when I scored in a 1-0 win. It was a great ball from Kevin McAllister, and a decent left-foot strike from me. I can only look at myself but I think it was 1995 when I got my first Scotland cap and my performances improved from then because I realised that consistency was a major thing," he states. "In the previous years, I wasn’t consistent enough. I’d have really good games, but I’d have really poor games as well. The consistency wasn’t there. When I went away with Scotland and saw the top boys playing for big clubs and week in, week out how good they were, that’s when it hit home. I was never arrogant or took things for granted, but it was a learning curve. It took me until I was 28 to realise that; to learn that consistency is a massive thing."
'There was quite a bizarre game during the 1995/96 season at Celtic Park,' I start saying.
"When I went in goal," Jackson interrupts, grinning as he takes out his mobile phone before scrolling through his picture library to show me a photo of him wearing Jim Leighton's jersey and pulling on the 'keeper's gloves.
“I remember Jim colliding with John Collins and needing treatment. He had a cut to his head. Someone had to go in and I said, ‘I’ll go in!’ I can remember Jackie [McNamara] crossed a ball and I came out and caught it, and I was pointing to my back. It was when there was a temporary stand at Parkhead, and I’d already scored to make it 1-0. I was pointing to the number one and I drop-kicked it up the pitch, great. Then it went out wide again, Jackie crossed it again, I came for it again… and I missed it. It fell for Andy Thom who knocked it back to Pierre van Hooijdonk who scored and after that, I couldn’t wait to get out [of goal]! Jim eventually came back on and I couldn’t get the goalie shirt off quick enough. Then Paul McStay stuck one in the top corner and I was joking with Jim telling him I would have saved it!"
The game itself threatened to descend into farce when Jackson, assuming Leighton would get brought back on after receiving treatment, left the goalmouth to retake his place in attack. But referee Sandy Roy appeared to signal play on with Hibs 'keeperless and utter confusion in the away dugout, and Jackson ended up running back to his own penalty box to put the jersey back on, until Leighton was waved back onto the park.
“I don’t know how it came about - it was just one of those scenarios. We didn’t have reserve goalies [on the bench], no one knew what to do so I thought I’d just go in. Every outfield player always fancies themselves as a goalie in training so you go in and people are taking shots at you and you’re diving about like an idiot - which most goalkeepers have to be, to voluntarily have balls smashed at them."
Jackson's final season at Hibs ended with a relegation play-off victory over Airdrieonians and it was fitting that he should score twice in the second leg to help Hibs to a 5-2 aggregate victory and top-flight safety - even if battling for survival was a long way from reaching cup finals and holding their own against Celtic and Rangers.
“We were good on our day - Rangers were the team at that time; they were just outstanding," he recalls. "They had one of, if not the best period in their history. So it was hard but we should have done better. That season we finished third, we should have easily finished second, if we’d had more consistency. Me, and the team as a whole."
When he did eventually leave Easter Road it was to join Celtic. But a little-known fact is that Hibs actually turned down an initial approach from the Hoops - under a different manager.
“The year before, Tommy Burns had put a bid in for me and Hibs had knocked it back. I was a bit gutted, but I never caused any problems. I didn’t hand in a transfer request or anything," Jackson says.
“We were in the play-offs against Airdrie, and Hibs probably thought - regardless of whether they felt I was their best player or not - that I was a valued player. And they probably felt they couldn’t let me go, given the position we were in. So I never made anything of it, we beat Airdrie and survived, and then Tommy got the sack. Wim Jansen came in and appointed Murdo MacLeod, who I’d played with at Hibs and Jock Brown, who was the chief executive at Celtic at the time, rated me very highly as well. Then John Clark, the old Celtic player, became the kit man and he’d tried to sign me at Cowdenbeath before Meadowbank. So everything sort of fell into place."
Jackson was taking part in pre-season training with Hibs when word came through that the club had accepted a £1.25 million offer from Celtic for the then 31-year-old.
“I remember we’d been down at Gullane beach with Jim Duffy in pre-season and I was walking back to the cars with Keith [Wright] when I got the call saying that Hibs had accepted a bid, and that was me away. I felt I couldn’t turn it down. It was Celtic. I’d waited until I was 31 to play for one of the biggest clubs in the world, and I’m not just saying that to get a pat on the back from Celtic fans. People ask me, ‘Did you have a good career?’ And my reply is always that I played for one of the biggest clubs in the world and I went to a World Cup. It’s not a bad career. I know how lucky I was. I was very, very lucky. You’ve got to be good, but you need a good bit of luck as well. Everything fell into place with Murdo being there. It could have been another manager who decided to go with someone else. But it was hard for me because they had just sold Pierre van Hooijdonk and I was Wim’s first signing - and I was miles away from Pierre!"
Jackson hadn't been at Celtic all that long when he was forced to pull out of a European tie against Tirol Innsbruck. Results of a precautionary scan brought with them the bombshell news that he might never play again after he was diagnosed with hydrocephalus, or water in the brain.
A second opinion, however, gave him optimism that he could play again if he had an operation and after undergoing surgery he was back in action in just nine weeks - 'a hamstring strain would have kept me out for longer', he says.
But his return to Edinburgh was marred by chants and remarks making light of his medical troubles, on top of the usual abuse which he expected, and relished.
“I missed Easter Road a lot. I see guys who’ve left coming back to a hero’s welcome and, if I’m honest, I was disappointed with the reception I got when I came back. I don’t think I deserved it; I gave everything in my five years at Hibs - even though one of them was poor, I was still trying. So I was disappointed.
"I was one of them, probably a bit like Scott Brown, in that I always got grief from away fans. I got it my whole career and I loved it. I enjoyed it. I thrived on it. Some players wouldn’t like it, but it’s what got me going. When I went to Hearts I got it for being a Hearts player, and I had no problem with that. It’s football," he reasons.
"But Hibs was the longest time I was at a club. I was a bit gutted with some of the stuff that was said - there were comments and songs about my brain operation as well which didn’t sit right with me. It doesn’t matter now of course but I felt I gave Hibs five, or at least four, brilliant years. The treatment didn't bother me at the time, but it did hurt because of the affection I had for them."
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